1595997523 J * Ghislain ~ghislain@adsl2.aqueos.com 1595997610 Q * Ghislain 1595997631 J * Ghislain ~ghislain@adsl2.aqueos.com 1596016592 N * Bertl_zZ Bertl 1596016595 M * Bertl morning folks! 1596018431 M * Bertl off for now ... bbl 1596018433 N * Bertl Bertl_oO 1596029313 Q * Aiken Remote host closed the connection 1596033963 J * fstd ~fstd@xdsl-78-35-64-104.nc.de 1596034433 Q * fstd_ Ping timeout: 480 seconds 1596039074 J * emanuel ~emanuel@128-244-57.fonira.net 1596041683 J * emanuel_ ~emanuel@2a02:1748:dd5e:7720:aad8:61cd:1c3a:de3f 1596047105 Q * emanuel_ 1596047120 Q * emanuel 1596048241 J * emanuel ~emanuel@2a02:1748:dd5e:7720:aad8:61cd:1c3a:de3f 1596050401 Q * Ghislain Ping timeout: 480 seconds 1596053477 M * emanuel I don't know if I am right here but I've got a Question: 1596053477 M * emanuel 1596053477 M * emanuel I was searching for a container solution for my bare metal (Debian 10) server for quite a long time so applications I install on it don't conflict with each other, new installations don't affect already working ones and if one application has a security vulnerability other ones can't be affected. Though things like Docker didn't seem really trustworthy and congenial to me due to the former security issues on Docker Hub, the 1596053477 M * emanuel centralization of Docker Hub and the lax Apache 2 license. 1596053478 M * emanuel 1596053480 M * emanuel After some searching around I found LXC which seemed good except LXD: 1596053482 M * emanuel The way they made this confusion with LXD, the extension for LXC, that they recommended "99%" of their users to use somehow told me that something wasn't quite right here. If I where a software developer and I was going to make an extension used by 99% of the users I'd integrate it and publish a legacy version. 1596053486 M * emanuel It was pretty difficult for me to set it up and the web seemed like the LXC users really where taking the advice and "99%" (not that I calculated that out) where using LXD on top of LXC which made nearly everything completely different. 1596053492 M * emanuel Some time later I think I found out why they created this confusing LXD: With that little trick they were able to change the license from GPL to Apache license. 1596053495 M * emanuel As far as I know Cannonical (The maintainer of the well known Ubuntu OS [You know, Amazon button on the Desktop sending searches through the users local files to Cannonical's servers]) who also sponsored LXC/LXD was a big contributor to LXD. 1596053499 M * emanuel 1596053501 M * emanuel I found a pretty great table of Virtualization-Software on Wikipedia which included yours. That way I found your website. I've got to say it is a very good congenial website focusing on information. The Documentation is very good, not just some tutorial about how to communicate with a black box. You even have got a page with Software similar to yours. Not trying to foist anything on me. 1596053506 M * emanuel But after inspecting your website and your repository on Github deeper I'm not sure if this project really is up to date: 1596053509 M * emanuel On your Installation on Debian site the newest release listed on the table is Debian 9, but the stable release of Debian is Debian 10 1596053512 M * emanuel LXC is not considered ready for a production environment 1596053514 M * emanuel On the Related Projects page Docker, rkt and LXD aren't mentioned 1596053516 M * emanuel The hype of contributions on Github was two years before I was born, the last change was 2018 1596053518 M * emanuel 1596053520 M * emanuel So is this software secure, up to date and stable? 1596053524 M * emanuel 1596053526 M * emanuel Please Note: I'm just a 14 year old individual who doesn't like it if Google, Microsoft, Amazon, etc are spying on me, who doesn't like centalisation, who is against censorship and survillence, who is interested in and has some knowledge and understanding about informatics and who has decided to host his own online services on his own server. 1596053530 M * emanuel Though I think my usage can be considered to be in a production environment as I will rely on my server for E-Mail, website, Cloud, Matrix(a decentral Instant Messenger), maybe Voice-IP, etc 1596053533 M * emanuel 1596053535 M * emanuel If I am wrong with anything just correct me. Nobody and nothing human made is perfect. 1596053537 M * emanuel 1596053539 M * emanuel English is not my mother tongue. 1596053541 M * emanuel 1596053543 M * emanuel 1596053545 M * emanuel 1596053547 M * emanuel I tried to set up Linux-VServer on my Server but I've got a problem: 1596053549 M * emanuel 1596053553 M * emanuel Creating a VServer works fine: 1596053555 M * emanuel 1596053557 M * emanuel root@Server:~# vserver test build --force -m debootstrap --context 42 --hostname vservertest.emanuel-loos.eu --interface enp1s0:192.168.1.1/24 -- -d stretch -m http://ftp.debian.org/debian 1596053560 M * emanuel 1596053562 M * emanuel Starting it up doesn't. 1596053564 M * emanuel 1596053566 M * emanuel root@Server:~# vserver test start 1596053568 M * emanuel No command given; use '--help' for more information. 1596053570 M * emanuel 1596053572 M * emanuel An error occured while executing the vserver startup sequence; when 1596053574 M * emanuel there are no other messages, it is very likely that the init-script 1596053576 M * emanuel () failed. 1596053578 M * emanuel 1596053582 M * emanuel Common causes are: 1596053584 M * emanuel * /etc/rc.d/rc on Fedora Core 1 and RH9 fails always; the 'apt-rpm' build 1596053586 M * emanuel method knows how to deal with this, but on existing installations, 1596053588 M * emanuel appending 'true' to this file will help. 1596053590 M * emanuel 1596053592 M * emanuel Failed to start vserver 'test' 1596053594 M * emanuel 1596053596 M * emanuel Stopping the vserver doesn't work as it isn't running, but deleting it doesn't work either: 1596053598 M * emanuel 1596053600 M * emanuel root@Server:~# vserver test delete 1596053602 M * emanuel rm: das Entfernen von '/vservers/test/path/to/file' ist nicht möglich: Die Operation ist nicht erlaubt 1596053605 M * emanuel rm: Deleting '/vservers/test/path/to/file' is not possible: The operation is not allowed 1596053606 M * emanuel 1596053608 M * emanuel But other then in the Mail from the mail from the mailing listeven Debian stretch doesn't work. 1596053969 M * gnarface emanuel: sorry i'm old and lazy, and i only really skimmed your whole post but uh... i think any distro using systemd is known not to work, have you heard of devuan? 1596054124 M * gnarface emanuel: sorry, i'll read your whole post now 1596054398 M * gnarface emanuel: ok, i read everything you said now, and the short version of the answer is: 1) secure? yes. 2) stable? yes. 3) up-to-date? no. and the website isn't either, really. you'll notice it's a wiki though so... feel free to help 1596054414 M * gnarface emanuel: you can still make it do what you want though if you just avoid systemd and elogind 1596054517 M * gnarface emanuel: if you are familiar with debian you could find devuan easier to use for this 1596054536 M * gnarface emanuel: (it's just a debian fork without systemd) 1596054669 M * gnarface emanuel: and even though there aren't patches for that kernel version, most stuff will probably work fine with an older kernel 1596054726 M * gnarface emanuel: there has actually been recent talk of updating but the primary bottleneck is funding 1596055136 J * Aiken ~Aiken@b951.h.jbmb.net 1596055237 M * Bertl_oO off to bed now ... have a good one everyone! 1596055239 N * Bertl_oO Bertl_zZ 1596055891 M * emanuel gnarface: Oh I forgot to write that the link to the documentation on how to remove systemd doesn't work 1596056132 M * gnarface emanuel: hehehe... yea that's why devuan exists. a bunch of us noticed that too. 1596056184 M * emanuel gnarface: And setting up the server again would be a bit complicated as the system is on an encrypted lvm and the data is on an encrypted lvm with a software raid 1596056192 M * gnarface emanuel: oh you mean the link itself doesn't work? i don't know about that, but i do know that systemd seems to be difficult to remove 1596056318 M * emanuel gnarface: Well I mean setting it up again would be a long thing. What is systemd for? 1596056372 M * gnarface emanuel: well it started as a replacement system startup controller, but they're trying to make it replace everything now 1596056391 M * gnarface emanuel: you ever see the movie TRON? it's like the MCP 1596056451 M * emanuel gnarface: and what doesn't work if i remove it 1596056462 M * gnarface emanuel: the system won't boot 1596056512 M * gnarface emanuel: that's the primary complaint about it; it's been designed to prevent removal, and it's also been strategically requiring changes to other programs that prevent replacement 1596056523 M * emanuel gnarface: and how do I start my server then 1596056567 M * gnarface emanuel: well in theory you'd use a different init, like openrc or sysvinit, but that doesn't seem to be possible on debian anymore, so that's what devuan addresses 1596056662 M * emanuel gnarface: and software that runs on debian also runs on devuan? 1596056681 M * gnarface emanuel: yea it's actually almost entirely the same exact packages with a few exceptions 1596056702 M * gnarface emanuel: here are some other distros you would probably have luck with too, btw: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Linux_distributions_without_systemd 1596056757 M * gnarface i hear a lot of positive feedback about artix 1596056790 M * emanuel gnarface: Why does systmd not work with linux-vserver 1596056840 M * gnarface emanuel: it requires granting guests fundamentally unsafe permission access from the host, which is possible just not safely, or cheaply, i guess 1596056898 M * gnarface emanuel: it should cause you to be skeptical of systemd 1596056900 M * emanuel gnarface: why would the debian devs do that 1596056908 M * gnarface emanuel: straight up bribery 1596056930 M * gnarface emanuel: follow the money trail 1596057088 M * emanuel gnarface: and I thought at least they care FREE softhare 1596057100 M * emanuel *software 1596057114 M * emanuel *about 1596057255 M * gnarface emanuel: well the vote barely passed, and there is some allegations of foul play 1596057295 M * gnarface emanuel: but they bribed everyone with donated work effectively too, though systemd itself, which appeals to the lazy... 1596057545 M * emanuel is that also why they made the kernel incompatible with linux vserver 1596057787 M * emanuel gnarface: is that also why they made the kernel incompatible with linux vserver 1596057865 M * emanuel gnarface: Hello? Are you still there 1596057974 M * gnarface emanuel: sorry, i was afk for a moment 1596057983 M * emanuel gnarface: And who bribed the debian devs 1596058017 M * gnarface emanuel: i don't think the kernel drifting out of compatibility with the linux-vservers patch had anything to do with systemd actually, no 1596058022 M * gnarface emanuel: it's just old 1596058040 M * gnarface emanuel: as for the bribery... that's RedHat (IBM) 1596058059 M * gnarface emanuel: they didn't just fool debian though, they tricked a lot of them 1596058160 M * emanuel gnarface: Do you have some sources on the internet for me 1596058200 M * emanuel gnarface: I never read anything obout that 1596058518 M * gnarface uh, it would be easy to search on google, i don't have any links at hand 1596058539 M * gnarface also you can probably search slashdot 1596058968 M * emanuel Well I prefer tartpage or duckduckgo. I did find something on slashdot but nothing about redhats involvement 1596059006 M * emanuel *startpage *redhat's 1596059037 M * gnarface oh 1596059048 M * gnarface well you can just look up the project itself 1596059065 M * gnarface you can see that the project lead is a redhat employee, working on it in their capacity AS a redhat employee 1596059082 M * gnarface that part is very common public knowledge (i'm sure duckduckgo will be able to lead you to the same information) 1596059336 M * emanuel I found the Wikipedia article. systemd stans under the LGPL and was developed by Red Hat (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann)[2] 345 different authors at 2018 and 1,317 different authors in total 1596059355 M * emanuel *stands 1596059527 M * gnarface it isn't the only thing they contribute, but it is the most virulent so far 1596059542 M * gnarface not everything they've made has even been bad 1596059546 M * gnarface but this one seems to be a blatant power grab 1596059586 M * gnarface by using this, all those distros ceded way too much control to redhat over the technical direction of their distros 1596059597 M * emanuel so am I understanding it right, they cotributed systemd and with that they bribed the devs 1596059637 M * emanuel why dont the devs fork systemd 1596059644 M * gnarface essentially, yes. that part is obvious and public knowledge. i'm also speculating they probably gave some of them cash under the table, or maybe just gave them job offers, but they wouldn't have to necessarily 1596059653 M * gnarface some bits of it have been forked actually 1596059662 M * gnarface that's what elogind is, a replacement for systemd-logind 1596059669 M * gnarface (it doesn't work with linux-vservers either though) 1596059699 M * emanuel why not 1596059734 M * gnarface same thing, needs the same unsafe permission 1596059737 M * gnarface just not the rest of systemd 1596059756 M * gnarface some of what systemd does, can't be done safely, the way they're doing it 1596059777 M * gnarface but people have still tried to mitigate the additional tie-on dependencies by creating drop-in replacements for bits 1596059831 M * emanuel and why dont the debian devs use a fork 1596059894 M * gnarface i could only speculate it has to do with personal character flaws, but it wouldn't be professional of me to go into detail 1596059908 M * gnarface some of them jumped ship and came to devuan 1596059914 M * gnarface some of them work on both distros now 1596059918 M * gnarface i don't know the numbers 1596059933 M * gnarface i know it happened to a lot of distros though, not just debian 1596059952 M * emanuel I never heard of devuvan before 1596059983 M * gnarface i wouldn't really have expected you to 1596059994 M * gnarface they have an irc channel on freenode though 1596059998 M * gnarface a few actually 1596060006 M * gnarface stop by if you are looking for more info 1596060044 M * emanuel yes, but why is it so unpopular 1596060077 M * gnarface well, unlike redhat it doesn't have a giant megacorp funding it 1596060090 M * emanuel -isearched very long through linux distros 1596060094 M * gnarface so you could be forgiven for thinking it's less popular than it really is, because it's simply less visible 1596060098 M * emanuel +I 1596060104 M * emanuel *I 1596060126 M * emanuel bit why 1596060127 M * gnarface it's also not been around very long, this whole systemd thing is relatively recent 1596060235 M * gnarface also every time you search for it google says "did you mean debian? searching for debian instead..." 1596060238 M * emanuel oh now i see its stable release was just 4 months ago. what was used before? 1596060268 M * gnarface there was a previous stable release it was just a bit later than debian 1596060307 M * gnarface they don't have as many people to work on stuff (here's where that difference in corporate backing shows again) 1596060351 M * emanuel so since when is systemd used in debian 1596060361 M * gnarface since jessie 1596060368 M * gnarface which is also the name of the first devuan version 1596060408 M * gnarface for the most part though, documentation about how sysvinit worked in debian wheezy is still accurate for devuan 1596060771 M * emanuel Is there anything else I should know 1596060994 M * emanuel And is linux vserver easyto use when I managed to install it 1596061280 M * emanuel gnarface: Are you still there? 1596061366 M * gnarface emanuel: i find it to be easy, but it mind depend on your definition of easy... 1596061414 M * gnarface emanuel: the website is out of date but you should still read it because alot of essential information on there also hasn't changed 1596061593 M * gnarface emanuel: there are some slightly newer vserver patches in the experimental directory that aren't linked from the website, but if you just browse to the directory in a browser, you can see the rest 1596061730 M * emanuel well I don't have that much experience with anything right now, which is why I'm open to many things, but I am willing to learn I just want to make sure that what I learn is really free and will still be in many years 1596061888 M * gnarface emanuel: well i have no official affiliation with the project so i can't say for sure, but no i don't think there are any plans for it "going commercial" if that's what you're worried about 1596061907 M * gnarface it's open source software so ... it's free forever as long as you keep a copy of the source code 1596062001 M * gnarface emanuel: like i said before, the primary bottleneck for it being supported going forward is just money. 1596062087 M * emanuel I don't think that there is anything wrong with the project, which is why I am here, but I am worried everything else 1596062195 M * gnarface well, for the time being i think you can probably get a 4.9 kernel booting devuan stable, and i know you can definitely get it booting oldstable, which might still have everything you need despite being very old 1596062378 M * gnarface but if you want to influence the long-term viability of the project your best option is to donate money 1596062405 M * emanuel oh and I read on the wiki that there are some problems with asterisk 1596062448 M * gnarface hmm, i don't know anything about asterisk, sorry. is that something you're actually gonna need? that's for dial-up phone systems. 1596062479 M * emanuel I did plan to use this server also for voice ip 1596062520 M * gnarface oh, hmm. can't just use mumble or something? there's plenty of voip clients that don't have phone system integration but still work fine for actually talking 1596062555 M * gnarface asterisk seems a bit overkill for a 14 year old's personal contacts, sorry i don't mean to be rude 1596062577 M * emanuel it's okay 1596062594 M * gnarface asterisk is for like, business office phone systems 1596062597 M * gnarface like for call centers and stuff 1596062613 M * gnarface if that's actually what you need, i still can't help 1596062622 M * emanuel I know 1596062638 M * gnarface but if you just need to talk with people i'd recommend mumble and murmur 1596062653 M * gnarface (which i know do work fine in vservers) 1596062827 M * gnarface there's over 60000 packages in devuan/debian, so it's worth looking for alternative solutions, there's often several choices 1596063058 M * emanuel I actually didn't inform me that much bout the different software solutions, but I thought that somehow I could be able to get a phone number and create a connection to the actual telephone network to make normal phone calls with my very own number. You know about enum? 1596063207 M * gnarface emanuel: sorry, nope, dunno about enum either. 1596063238 M * gnarface emanuel: here, you can check for devuan packages: https://pkginfo.devuan.org/ 1596063258 M * emanuel Thanks 1596063299 M * gnarface emanuel: each of these match a debian release; 3.0 corresponds to debian 10.0 1596063341 M * emanuel Tanks, you told me already 1596063366 M * gnarface oh, so i did 1596063478 M * emanuel oh and I actually didn't get how it works with the networking 1596063496 M * emanuel the internal ip addresses 1596063549 M * emanuel do i have to do anything there or does linux vserver do that for me 1596063583 M * gnarface heh 1596063586 M * gnarface you have to do everything 1596063602 M * gnarface it's very low level but that makes it quite flexible 1596063609 M * gnarface i found it to be elementally simple to deal with 1596063621 M * gnarface but since it's all plain text i'm not sure you'd agree 1596063717 M * gnarface emanuel: here, even if this is out of date it'll still be fundamentally the same: http://linux-vserver.org/Networking_vserver_guests 1596063834 M * gnarface if you're already used to configuring the network on debian this way then it'll be easy 1596063931 M * emanuel Yes I saw that page before but loading the dummy device is optional and does it really work without a bridge 1596064008 M * gnarface well, no. it's optional in the sense that you could just dedicate a physical ethernet card to it instead. 1596064039 M * gnarface so in the guest config instead of "dummy0" you'd just set it to "eth2" or something 1596064065 M * emanuel but then I would need one for each vserver, right? 1596064079 M * gnarface right, which is why the dummy interfaces are super useful 1596064124 M * gnarface but if you read between the lines you can see that the setup for just giving each guest a physical ethernet card would be the same, but with that device name instead of dummy0 1596064159 M * gnarface well, maybe the one caveat that you might have to have all configs in the /etc/network/interfaces file too, no spawning of extra nodes 1596064193 M * emanuel but i didn't get that with the kernel configuration. Where do i find thet file 1596064210 M * gnarface that would be part of the stock debian and devuan installs 1596064217 M * gnarface probably all debian derivatives use it actually 1596064237 M * gnarface but if you have a graphical network management tool installed, it might ignore it, override it, or clobber it, maybe even choke on it 1596064257 M * gnarface without a graphical network management tool, it can be edited by hand (and is intended to be) 1596064370 M * emanuel i don't think i have one installed but what about the kernel config 1596064436 M * emanuel "requires CONFIG_DUMMY=m in your kernel configuration" 1596064650 M * gnarface well if you're patching and building the kernel anyway that's easy to add but that is already the default 1596064688 M * gnarface already the default on debian, and debian and devuan use the same kernels 1596064730 M * gnarface it's probably the default on the vanilla kernels too but it's easy to be sure 1596064749 M * gnarface you can check the configuration before you build it, it's a plain text file... 1596064800 M * emanuel I didn't patch the kernel myself, I got it from psand.net as recommanded 1596064811 M * gnarface oh 1596064812 M * gnarface i see 1596064902 M * emanuel I never patched a kernel myself but I guess it couldn't hurt to try 1596064921 M * gnarface the process should be easy to find documentation on 1596064939 M * emanuel I just din't know how yet 1596064955 M * gnarface it's complex, maybe save it for later if you have a working kernel right now, but it's worth learning 1596065105 M * emanuel Yes I guess it would be good to get my server running before. :-) 1596065366 M * emanuel And why is linux vserver still under the gpl2? 1596065389 M * emanuel Isn't there a way to upgrade? 1596065467 M * gnarface isn't the kernel still gpl2 itself? 1596065489 M * gnarface there might be some good reason to keep it gpl2, i'm not sure. newer isn't always better. 1596065560 M * emanuel I didn't know 1596065710 M * emanuel That's true but the gpl3 does have some enhancements: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/rms-why-gplv3.en.html 1596065780 M * gnarface yes, but those enhancements might be detrimental to some businesses 1596065790 M * gnarface and sometimes that may be needed, and sometimes it may not be 1596065798 M * gnarface which is why the gpl2 and gpl3 both still exist 1596065831 M * gnarface i'm no lawyer but as i understood it, the gpl3 constrains some additional use cases 1596065901 M * gnarface they say it "prevents tivoization" but what if you make tivos, eh? 1596066101 M * gnarface whether or not it's considered harmful to allow that or not is a business issue 1596066107 M * emanuel What do you mean? 1596066119 M * gnarface i mean that it's about money again 1596066129 M * emanuel oh 1596066200 M * emanuel But I can tell you my very own story about that: 1596066314 M * emanuel I bought a chinese smartphone with a locked bootloader on amazon 1596066407 M * emanuel The company that produced it doesn't provide bootloader unlock codes anymore. 1596066414 M * gnarface well that sucks 1596066447 M * gnarface you should have got one of these instead: https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ 1596066478 M * emanuel I already tryed many things to get that bootloader unlocked. 1596066493 M * emanuel I know 1596066709 M * emanuel I even tried it at their "service center" in Vienn, Austria because I read that somone in India had luck at a service center. 1596066721 M * emanuel *Vienna 1596066952 M * emanuel I told them that I know the risks, that I will loose my warranty and that I want to get that bootloader unlocked. 1596066983 M * emanuel They told me that they cant do that. 1596067054 M * emanuel I asked where I could get my bootloader unlocked then. 1596067091 M * gnarface very tenacious 1596067117 M * emanuel They said that they are not allowed to tell me how to loose my warranty. 1596067141 M * emanuel I went home.