1216598839 Q * FireEgl Quit: Leaving...
1216599169 J * FireEgl FireEgl@adsl-4-50-84.bhm.bellsouth.net
1216600040 J * doener ~doener@i577B81BB.versanet.de
1216600206 Q * doener_ Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216601333 Q * yarihm Quit: Leaving
1216601445 J * weasel_ weasel@weasel.chair.oftc.net
1216601451 J * snooze_ ~o@1-1-4-40a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se
1216601460 J * []{ anders@ies57-061.ies.luth.se
1216601467 J * doener_ ~doener@i577B81BB.versanet.de
1216601481 J * opuk_ ~kupo@alla.beundrar.kupo.se
1216601485 Q * doener resistance.oftc.net magnet.oftc.net
1216601485 Q * Mr_Smoke resistance.oftc.net magnet.oftc.net
1216601485 Q * snooze resistance.oftc.net magnet.oftc.net
1216601485 Q * eyck resistance.oftc.net magnet.oftc.net
1216601485 Q * esa` resistance.oftc.net magnet.oftc.net
1216601485 Q * opuk resistance.oftc.net magnet.oftc.net
1216601485 Q * daniel_hozac resistance.oftc.net magnet.oftc.net
1216601485 Q * ard resistance.oftc.net magnet.oftc.net
1216601485 Q * nou resistance.oftc.net magnet.oftc.net
1216601485 Q * weasel resistance.oftc.net magnet.oftc.net
1216601485 Q * Medivh resistance.oftc.net magnet.oftc.net
1216601485 Q * localghost resistance.oftc.net magnet.oftc.net
1216601485 N * snooze_ snooze
1216601487 J * Mr_Smoke ~smokey@layla.lecoyote.org
1216601494 J * eyck Ta0oyL8p@nat05.nowanet.pl
1216601504 J * daniel_hozac ~daniel@c-571472d5.08-230-73746f22.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se
1216601509 N * weasel_ weasel
1216601532 J * Medivh ck@dolphin.serverbox.de
1216601541 Q * Mr_Smoke Read error: Connection reset by peer
1216601596 J * esa ~esa@ip-87-238-2-45.static.adsl.cheapnet.it
1216601788 J * Mr_Smoke ~smokey@layla.lecoyote.org
1216601791 J * nou Chaton@2001:6f8:328:bbc:6666:6667::
1216607899 J * geb ~geb@AOrleans-151-1-70-211.w90-21.abo.wanadoo.fr
1216608933 J * ard ~ard@shell2.kwaak.net
1216609247 J * Moser__ ~chatzilla@X92ce.x.pppool.de
1216609588 Q * Moser Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216609588 N * Moser__ Moser
1216610938 Q * geb Quit: Quitte
1216620046 Q * hparker Quit: Read error: 104 (Peer reset by connection)
1216623710 J * kir ~kir@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru
1216623874 J * dna ~dna@136-212-dsl.kielnet.net
1216625029 Q * bronson Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216625377 N * DoberMann[ZZZzzz] DoberMann
1216625432 N * opuk_ opuk
1216630150 J * Moser__ ~chatzilla@X8935.x.pppool.de
1216630468 Q * Moser Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216630476 N * Moser__ Moser
1216630989 N * []{ localghost
1216633345 J * friendly ~friendly@ppp59-167-145-230.lns4.mel6.internode.on.net
1216633849 J * Moser__ ~chatzilla@Xb30d.x.pppool.de
1216634186 Q * Moser Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216634189 N * Moser__ Moser
1216634310 J * ntrs__ ~ntrs@77.29.78.237
1216634687 J * Moser__ ~chatzilla@X9079.x.pppool.de
1216635027 Q * Moser Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216635029 N * Moser__ Moser
1216635539 J * Moser__ ~chatzilla@Xd5f9.x.pppool.de
1216635692 J * psycotux ~psycotuxb@snappy.schneebi.com
1216635868 Q * Moser Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216635881 N * Moser__ Moser
1216635947 Q * BobR_oO Server closed connection
1216635950 J * BobR_oO odie@IRC.13thfloor.at
1216636071 J * Moser__ ~chatzilla@X9f5e.x.pppool.de
1216636406 Q * Moser Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216636452 J * Moser___ ~chatzilla@Xa1de.x.pppool.de
1216636454 N * Moser___ Moser
1216636791 Q * Moser__ Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216637025 J * mrfree ~mrfree@host1-89-static.40-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it
1216637029 J * clochette ~clochette@ANantes-257-1-111-107.w90-25.abo.wanadoo.fr
1216637158 Q * clochette 
1216637197 J * ntrs_ ~ntrs@77.29.76.223
1216637217 Q * mcp Server closed connection
1216637233 J * mcp ~hightower@wolk-project.de
1216637372 J * pmenier ~pme@LNeuilly-152-22-72-5.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr
1216637599 Q * ntrs__ Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216637990 J * Moser___ ~chatzilla@Zc498.z.pppool.de
1216638267 Q * Moser Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216638271 N * Moser___ Moser
1216639488 J * Moser___ ~chatzilla@X809b.x.pppool.de
1216639828 Q * Moser Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216639829 N * Moser___ Moser
1216640119 J * Moser___ ~chatzilla@X96c0.x.pppool.de
1216640262 Q * mrfree Quit: Leaving
1216640426 Q * Moser Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216640430 N * Moser___ Moser
1216640799 Q * friendly Quit: Leaving.
1216641419 J * Moser___ ~chatzilla@Ybfcd.y.pppool.de
1216641464 Q * Aiken Quit: Leaving
1216641804 J * Moser____ ~chatzilla@Ya9b4.y.pppool.de
1216641808 Q * Moser Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216641815 N * Moser____ Moser
1216642053 Q * balbir Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216642136 Q * Moser___ Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216642193 J * ema ~ema@rtfm.galliera.it
1216642622 J * rob-84x^ ~rob@submarine.ath.cx
1216643027 J * Moser____ ~chatzilla@Zce39.z.pppool.de
1216643308 Q * Moser Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216643308 N * Moser____ Moser
1216643568 J * Moser____ ~chatzilla@X8fed.x.pppool.de
1216643911 Q * Moser Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216643924 N * Moser____ Moser
1216644388 A * nox should consider to ignore nickchanges also :)
1216644403 M * Mr_Smoke Probably :)
1216644414 J * lilalinux ~plasma@80.69.41.3
1216644519 N * Bertl_oO Bertl
1216644528 M * nox wb Bertl 
1216644538 M * Bertl Moser: please fix your client, otherwise we'll have to ban you
1216644567 M * Bertl hey nox! how's going?
1216644582 M * nox Bertl is why i don?t ignore nickchanges here
1216644590 M * nox everything fine
1216644609 M * nox a bit unmotivated for working ... its monday :)
1216644758 M * Bertl hehe
1216645336 J * docelic ~docelic@78.134.192.57
1216645988 Q * kir Remote host closed the connection
1216645995 J * kir ~kir@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru
1216647371 J * balbir ~balbir@fw54.torolab.ibm.com
1216648138 M * zbyniu re
1216648169 M * zbyniu there are 2 methods for pkgmgmt in utils - internal and external
1216648181 M * Bertl correct
1216648226 M * zbyniu but external uses network from guests if guest is up, and some interfaces exsists
1216648259 M * Bertl not sure about that, daniel_hozac has the details
1216648273 M * zbyniu what sometimes is not comfortable
1216648297 M * zbyniu some guests are w/o public routing 
1216648311 M * Bertl I'd assume it depends on the actual package manager
1216648335 M * zbyniu and reversed - sometimes host system is w/o public routing
1216648384 Q * balbir Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216648384 M * zbyniu i think of vpoldek, but this part is outside pkg manager 
1216648404 M * zbyniu /usr/sbin/vsomething line ~116
1216648409 M * Bertl I see your point, but I fear that is outside the scope of util-vserver ... i.e. it has to be implemented for the various package managers
1216648446 M * zbyniu Bertl: please look at /usr/sbin/vsomething:116
1216648489 M * zbyniu if you drop "${CHBIND_CMD[@]}" it will be "full external" mode
1216648521 M * zbyniu external with external (host) network 
1216648554 M * Bertl well, but that's not the purpose of vsomething :)
1216648564 Q * Bertl Server closed connection
1216648567 J * Bertl herbert@IRC.13thfloor.at
1216648589 M * Bertl well, but that's not the purpose of vsomething :)
1216648625 M * Bertl the purpose of vsomething is to execute something like it was run _inside_ the guests (for a number of guests)
1216648634 M * zbyniu isn't it just wrapper for pkgmanagers? :)
1216648645 J * Tarick ~Tarick@194.44.129.58
1216648658 M * Bertl no, I don't think so :)
1216648693 M * Tarick Hi. I couldn't find the answer in wiki and google, so:
1216648697 M * Tarick just a sec
1216648714 M * zbyniu for vpoldek, vapt-get and vrpm it is
1216648769 M * Bertl best talk to daniel_hozac about the implementation details
1216648802 M * zbyniu however, maybe there sholud be third possibility - something like file flag external-net
1216648818 M * Tarick 2.6.22.6-vs2.3.0.24.1, util-vserver.x86_64  0.30.216-1.pre2728.el5.
1216648818 M * Tarick vserver test stop
1216648822 M * zbyniu daniel_hozac: ping
1216648843 M * Bertl Tarick: wouldn'T hurt to update your kernel
1216648863 M * Tarick vserver test delete
1216648863 M * Tarick and there are left folders that I cannot delete:
1216648863 M * Tarick dev/    proc/   .rpmdb/ tmp/
1216648890 M * Tarick Bertl: we updating them. Slowly
1216648950 M * Bertl Tarick: such 'stuck' folders are a sign of remaining mounts inside the guest
1216648952 J * balbir ~balbir@fw54.torolab.ibm.com
1216648961 M * Tarick now I'm concerned with that left folders:
1216648961 M * Tarick I cannot remove them, /proc': Device or resource busy, tmp': Device or resource busy
1216648977 M * Tarick ok, than can I remove them without restarting host?
1216648980 M * Bertl Tarick: as the kernel handles that on guest exit (last process exits), I presume this is the result of the older/broken kernel
1216649013 M * Bertl Tarick: if the guest is still running (or some processes inside are) killing them off should 'unlock' them
1216649039 M * Tarick no, there is no guest running. I'm shutting it down explicitly before delete
1216649069 M * Bertl as I said, a lot of things were fixed since this experimental kernel release
1216649115 M * Tarick so, I should upgrade to newer kernel. I'll talk to our guys about it, thanks
1216649147 M * Bertl if the same happens with 2.6.22.19-vs2.3.0.34, we have an issue to look at
1216649529 M * Tarick I made restore from template, startup, shutdown and delete successfully  on 2.6.22.19-vs2.3.0.34.1.
1216649529 M * Tarick So, we should definitelly upgrade
1216649543 M * Tarick thanks, Bertl 
1216649751 M * Bertl you're welcome!
1216649763 Q * Tarick Quit: Leaving
1216650785 Q * quasisane Read error: Connection reset by peer
1216650991 J * quasisane ~sanep@c-75-68-59-175.hsd1.nh.comcast.net
1216651042 Q * larsivi Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216651065 J * rgl ~rgl@bl8-135-11.dsl.telepac.pt
1216651071 A * rgl waves
1216651263 J * fatgoose ~samuel@82.80.modemcable.oricom.ca
1216651715 M * Bertl nap attack ... bbl
1216651721 N * Bertl Bertl_zZ
1216652609 M * Mr_Smoke Yay, finally got 2.6.22.19 to work
1216652616 M * Mr_Smoke with ipv6 and grsec
1216652621 M * Mr_Smoke AND baselayout 2
1216652648 M * Mr_Smoke Just so you know, there is a glitch in openrc which causes vserver to complain when shutting down, but it's not that bat
1216652651 M * Mr_Smoke bad*
1216652932 M * Mr_Smoke I'll file a bug against openrc with the fix
1216653292 Q * kir Quit: Leaving.
1216653361 Q * fatgoose Quit: fatgoose
1216653549 Q * Hunger Quit: changing servers
1216653654 Q * lilalinux Remote host closed the connection
1216653735 Q * mEDI_S Server closed connection
1216653794 J * fatgoose ~samuel@82.80.modemcable.oricom.ca
1216653795 J * mEDI_S ~medi@snipah.com
1216654946 J * Hunger Hunger.hu@213.163.11.138
1216655523 Q * fatgoose Quit: fatgoose
1216656369 Q * jsambrook Quit: Leaving.
1216656686 J * bonbons ~bonbons@2001:960:7ab:0:2c0:9fff:fe2d:39d
1216657222 J * fatgoose ~samuel@82.80.modemcable.oricom.ca
1216657244 N * DoberMann DoberMann[PullA]
1216657665 Q * bored2sleep Server closed connection
1216657736 J * bored2sleep ~bored2sle@66-111-53-150.static.sagonet.net
1216657902 J * bronson ~bronson@adsl-76-254-59-208.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net
1216658794 M * daniel_hozac zbyniu: package managers have to execute in the context.
1216658820 M * daniel_hozac zbyniu: otherwise scriptlets such as service httpd condrestart will start httpd on the host, which would be bad.
1216658835 J * ntrs__ ~ntrs@77.29.75.249
1216659238 Q * ntrs_ Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216659276 M * zbyniu daniel_hozac: hmm, you're right :-/
1216659336 M * zbyniu any idea how to solve it?
1216659369 M * daniel_hozac i just use iptables to set up "non-routable" guests.
1216659402 M * daniel_hozac i.e. they can still access the mirror (NATed, if necessary), but nothing else.
1216659409 M * zbyniu and why it was working in past, don't know if it's kernel or utils related
1216659439 M * daniel_hozac depends, are these guests completely without an IP?
1216659500 M * zbyniu no, if guest is down or have no configured IPs net from host is used
1216659558 Q * arachnist Remote host closed the connection
1216659575 M * daniel_hozac the latter isn't true for 2.3+ kernels.
1216659599 M * daniel_hozac i don't know why i added that check to see if the guest is running...
1216659605 J * arachnist arachnist@85.222.29.130
1216659974 Q * arachnist Remote host closed the connection
1216659975 J * arachnist arachnist@atlnts.org
1216660054 Q * matti Server closed connection
1216660055 J * matti matti@acrux.romke.net
1216660207 J * jsambrook ~jsambrook@aelfric.plus.com
1216660325 J * larsivi ~larsivi@169.80-202-217.nextgentel.com
1216660329 Q * fatgoose Read error: Connection reset by peer
1216660686 M * zbyniu daniel_hozac: it looks in strace if there is no "interfaces" chbind ... is just empty
1216660758 J * fatgoose ~samuel@82.80.modemcable.oricom.ca
1216660814 N * Bertl_zZ Bertl
1216660819 M * Bertl much better ..
1216660833 Q * balbir Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216661474 Q * arachnist Remote host closed the connection
1216661489 J * arachnist arachnist@atlnts.org
1216661523 M * daniel_hozac zbyniu: right, as it should be.
1216661763 J * hparker ~hparker@linux.homershut.net
1216661793 Q * arachnist Remote host closed the connection
1216661838 J * arachnist arachnist@atlnts.org
1216662285 J * geb ~geb@AOrleans-151-1-84-132.w90-21.abo.wanadoo.fr
1216662354 M * geb hi
1216662590 Q * ensc Remote host closed the connection
1216663280 M * Bertl hey geb!
1216663371 Q * ema Quit: leaving
1216664751 N * DoberMann[PullA] DoberMann
1216665369 Q * psycotux Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.12/20050915]
1216666182 Q * nox Server closed connection
1216666194 J * nox ~nox@static.88-198-17-175.clients.your-server.de
1216667165 Q * tam Quit: Lost terminal
1216667179 J * tam ~tam@gw.nettam.com
1216667227 M * trippeh_ Hola
1216667239 N * trippeh_ trippeh
1216667262 A * trippeh is refreshing the Experimental/ directory listing a couple times a day ;)
1216667310 M * Bertl sounds like trippeh is eager to test new versions :)
1216667326 J * mrjack ~mrjack@p54B59E8B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de
1216667326 M * mrjack hi
1216667335 M * Bertl hi
1216667350 M * mrjack Bertl: i finally converted all hosts
1216667359 M * Bertl congrats!
1216667360 M * mrjack but i have some problems which i can't resolve..
1216667376 M * Bertl let's hear ...
1216667384 M * mrjack e.g. i have a vserver which has a dedicated ip but i cannot asign services such as sshd
1216667386 M * mrjack i straced
1216667390 M * mrjack and found this:
1216667398 M * mrjack setsockopt(3, SOL_SOCKET, SO_REUSEADDR, [1], 4) = 0
1216667398 M * mrjack bind(3, {sa_family=AF_INET, sin_port=htons(22), sin_addr=inet_addr("91.204.170.175")}, 16) = -1 EADDRINUSE (Address already in use)
1216667405 M * mrjack but, the address is not in use
1216667432 M * trippeh mrjack: Checked if its in use as 0.0.0.0 on the server itself?
1216667434 M * mrjack i tried restarting the vserver, stopping it, deleting the interface manually, etc, but nothing works.
1216667443 M * mrjack trippeh: the server does not listen on 0.0.0.0
1216667450 M * trippeh (or ::)
1216667454 M * daniel_hozac http://linux-vserver.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions#When_I_try_to_ssh_to_the_guest.2C_I_log_into_the_host.2C_even_if_I_installed_sshd_on_the_guest._What.27s_wrong_here.3F
1216667479 M * mrjack daniel_hozac: this is not the problem.
1216667488 M * mrjack daniel_hozac: i use vserver for about 5 years now.. :)
1216667506 M * Bertl mrjack: you sure that port 22 isn't bound elsewhere?
1216667551 M * trippeh You checked with lsof / netstat -anp of course? :)
1216667551 M * mrjack Bertl: when i am inside the vserver, i can only see apache attached to the interface
1216667555 M * mrjack yes
1216667566 M * trippeh (on the server, not inside the vserver)
1216667570 M * Bertl not talking about inside, talking about other guests and the host
1216667586 M * mrjack how can other hosts be tied to the interface, if it is removed? 
1216667597 M * Bertl removed?
1216667601 M * mrjack yes
1216667604 M * mrjack when i do a vserver stop
1216667623 M * daniel_hozac 0.0.0.0 binds bind to whatever addresses are present at the time.
1216667637 M * daniel_hozac (and that are added afterwards)
1216667653 M * Bertl and guests already bound to that ip will not give up just when the ip disappears
1216667688 M * mrjack hm
1216667692 M * mrjack how can i bisect it?
1216667705 M * Bertl first, check on the host with 'lsof -ni :22'
1216667726 M * Bertl then, check with /prov/virtnet/*/info for the specific IP
1216667726 M * mrjack Bertl: there i see ssh attached to my eth0 and tun0 which is what i configured
1216667732 M * daniel_hozac well, ncontext --migrate --nid 1 -- lsof -ni :22 is probably even better.
1216667776 M * mrjack ah
1216667789 M * mrjack Bertl: that was it, i found out another context is using the ip address..
1216667795 M * mrjack but the context does not seem to be running?
1216667809 M * mrjack yes
1216667813 M * Bertl well, if there is an entry in virtnet, it definitely _is_ running :)
1216667838 M * mrjack okay, but i cant see it with vserver-stat and i can't see any processes with that context-id
1216667899 M * Bertl note, network id (nid) not necessarily matches the context id (xid)
1216667905 M * mrjack ah
1216667906 M * mrjack k
1216667915 M * daniel_hozac especially if you're using legacy dynamic contexts.
1216667925 M * mrjack no, i moved to the new config-style
1216667932 M * mrjack there are no legacy configurations
1216667958 M * daniel_hozac you can still use dynamic contexts, even with the new configuration.
1216667962 M * Bertl maybe from a chbind or a left over process
1216668018 M * mrjack hm
1216668029 M * mrjack how can i get rid of zombie context-ids? :)
1216668046 M * mrjack 49162/info:0:   91.204.170.175/255.255.255.0
1216668046 M * mrjack 49202/info:0:   91.204.170.175/255.255.255.0
1216668047 M * Bertl find the process holding it and kill it
1216668055 M * mrjack apperantly, 49162 is my zombie
1216668068 M * mrjack there is no process running
1216668071 M * Bertl 49162 is a dynamic context id :)
1216668073 M * mrjack yes
1216668106 M * mrjack but i cannot see any process attached to it
1216668124 M * Bertl how would you check that?
1216668129 M * mrjack with vps 
1216668139 M * daniel_hozac not accurate.
1216668142 M * daniel_hozac vps shows xids.
1216668152 M * mrjack so what should i do?
1216668162 M * daniel_hozac vcontext --xid 1 --migrate -- sh -c 'grep 49162 /proc/*/ninfo'
1216668194 M * mrjack and this gives me a list of proccesses running on that nid?
1216668206 M * daniel_hozac yes.
1216668228 M * mrjack ok, i'll check that
1216668241 M * Bertl and get rid of those dynamic contexts :)
1216668258 M * mrjack i'll script around this later :)
1216668314 M * mrjack ok
1216668319 M * mrjack no i think i found the problem
1216668365 M * mrjack it is a hacked vserver without /bin which messed up something when the server tried to boot
1216668373 M * mrjack so i couldn't see it with vserver-stat
1216668412 M * mrjack Bertl: the context id.. is which data-type? int(32) or what?
1216668447 M * daniel_hozac int, but limited to 16-bit.
1216668451 M * mrjack hm
1216668522 Q * rgl Quit: Leaving
1216668668 M * mrjack ok
1216668673 M * Bertl 2-49151 can be used on 'normal' systems
1216668698 M * Bertl you can make use of the dunamic range (49152-65534) too if you disable dynamic contexts in the kernel (in theory)
1216668738 M * mrjack ok, but anyways that should be enough.. i just thought about just using my vserver_id which i use in my database as identifier.
1216668789 M * Bertl if that's within the range, why not
1216668815 M * mrjack yes, for now it surely is - but what if it exceeds 65535? :)
1216668861 M * Bertl then you need a much bigger machine, and will have enough money to sponsor ultra high end computing Linux-VServer ports :)
1216668887 M * mrjack hrhr
1216668925 M * mrjack i asked about 5 years ago if there is any approach in combining linux-vserver with openmosix, but i found out that openmosix is rip.
1216668962 M * Bertl unfortunately, but alternatives are still available
1216668995 M * Bertl (openssi, for example)
1216669143 M * Bertl hmm .. nope, seems they are dead too :(
1216669198 M * Bertl last release was for 2.6.11 as it seems ...
1216669205 M * mrjack yes
1216669218 Q * larsivi Ping timeout: 480 seconds
1216669410 M * mrjack ok
1216669419 M * mrjack no i am glad that everything is working as usual :)
1216669460 M * MooingLemur I wonder why there was such a sudden loss of interest in that concept
1216669475 M * Bertl multicore cpus?
1216669478 M * mrjack yes
1216669482 M * mrjack hardware got real cheap
1216669546 M * Bertl the quad+ cores cannot be targeted at the typical M$ sector, as I heard, most apps do not even 'support' multiple cores
1216669576 M * mrjack yes
1216669584 M * mrjack they are targeted at me :-P
1216669625 M * Bertl 2008 - OpenSSI-1.9.x port to kernel-2.6.18. (**in progress**)
1216669641 M * Bertl so maybe we get a version for the new debian release?
1216669687 M * mrjack but i have the feeling that using a real smp is somewhat different in using a multicore cpu
1216669722 M * Bertl yeah, it's a little slower (the SMP machine :)
1216669733 M * mrjack real smp systems runn more smoothly i think it's because of the way hardware interrupts are managed different in smp than in multicore
1216669743 M * mrjack really?
1216669756 M * Bertl (unless you have non-pc cpu links .. think infiniband)
1216669923 M * mrjack but anyways.. where is all this leading to?
1216669939 M * mrjack 65k-core cpus, exabytes of ram.. 
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1216670180 M * Bertl well, the current software models do not scale to this (except for specific applications)
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