1111451671 Q * ndim Ping timeout: 480 seconds 1111451889 J * ndim hun@helena.bawue.de 1111452354 J * keyser_soze ~keyser@host82.201-252-44.telecom.net.ar 1111453450 J * SGVsbG8h ~JimBob@ACD5BF4D.ipt.aol.com 1111454396 Q * keyser_soze Quit: Abandonando 1111454692 J * kyencer_ ~kyencer@adsl-156-107-102.asm.bellsouth.net 1111454738 J * kyencer__ ~kyencer@adsl-156-107-102.asm.bellsouth.net 1111454762 Q * kyencer Read error: Operation timed out 1111454819 Q * kyencer_ Read error: Operation timed out 1111457396 Q * prae Quit: Pwet 1111458266 Q * SGVsbG8h Ping timeout: 480 seconds 1111459912 Q * monrad Quit: Leaving 1111465495 Q * kalou Read error: Operation timed out 1111466834 J * nox- ~nox@213.39.193.126 1111467164 Q * nox Ping timeout: 480 seconds 1111467193 N * nox- nox 1111469404 J * Bertl_zZ_ ~herbert@janus.mc.tuwien.ac.at 1111469471 Q * Bertl_zZ Ping timeout: 480 seconds 1111472433 N * DaPhreak|detach DaPhreak 1111472993 J * kalou ~kalou@AToulon-201-1-3-12.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr 1111477152 Q * PazZzzzooo Quit: Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/ 1111478848 J * erwan_ho ~erwan@lns-vlq-39f-81-56-133-136.adsl.proxad.net 1111480317 Q * erwan_ho Remote host closed the connection 1111482774 J * pulsar ~pulsar@82.209.246.234 1111482813 M * pulsar Hi ! Can I force uptime in vps to 111days for exampe ? 1111484169 Q * jsambrook Remote host closed the connection 1111484738 J * jsambrook ~jsambrook@aelfric.plus.com 1111485281 Q * kalou Quit: Leaving 1111485995 Q * jsambrook Remote host closed the connection 1111486031 J * jsambrook ~jsambrook@aelfric.plus.com 1111486875 M * sebd hello, something strange happened : vserver V is running. I create /etc/vservers/V/bcapabilities with CAP_NET_SERVICE. As expected, the new CAP is not automatically granted to the running vserver. So I type "vserver V stop". It halts, and instead of giving me the shell prompt, it cut my server from the network (I was connected to it via ssh). I can't ping my server anymore. As if I had typed "ifconfig eth0 down". 1111487373 M * Zoiah sebd: the init-scripts in your vserver probably shutdown the network interfaces. 1111487391 M * Zoiah sebd: by granting them CAP_NET_SERVICE they are allowed to actually do it. 1111487408 M * sebd Zoiah: I did not think CAP_NET_SERVICE would allow that 1111487428 M * sebd it's supposed to allow listening on ports < 1024 1111487435 M * Zoiah Hmm... 1111487471 M * sebd maybe the host serveur was taken off CAP_NET_SERVICE 1111487493 M * Zoiah Isn't that CAP_NET_BIND_SERVICE? 1111487505 M * Zoiah Hmm, disabling the NIC requires CAP_NET_ADMIN. 1111487509 M * sebd yes 1111487517 M * Zoiah Do you let the tools assign the IPs to the NIC? 1111487545 M * sebd Well, the IP is shared between the host and the vservers 1111487553 M * sebd only one ip 1111487598 M * Zoiah Is there an interface in the configuration? 1111487629 M * sebd yes, eth0 1111487646 M * Zoiah Then the tools will bring it up/down. 1111487651 M * sebd :( 1111487656 M * Zoiah Usually on an alias though. 1111487666 M * Zoiah You can leave the dev away and it'll just chbind. 1111487667 M * sebd How do I prevent it to happen ? 1111487667 M * daniel_hozac ... unless the nodev file is present. 1111487671 M * Zoiah Or nodev. 1111487676 M * Zoiah Ahh, yes, nodev. :) 1111487756 M * sebd ok, nodev. Found it on the flower page. Thank you. 1111487847 M * sebd Zoiah: the capability name is NET_BIND_SERVICE :) http://savannah.nongnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/util-vserver/util-vserver/lib/bcaps-v13.c?rev=HEAD 1111487869 M * Zoiah sebd: great. :) 1111490253 Q * jsambrook Remote host closed the connection 1111490294 J * jsambrook ~jsambrook@aelfric.plus.com 1111490341 Q * jsambrook Remote host closed the connection 1111490668 N * Bertl_zZ_ Bertl 1111490691 M * Bertl morning folks! 1111490793 M * aba Hi Bertl 1111490903 M * DaPhreak morning Bertl :) 1111490935 J * jsambrook ~jsambrook@aelfric.plus.com 1111490997 M * DaPhreak heh Bertl, you're such a evil person :D your 512.img got immutable flag set, and i tried 3 times to rm 512.img but it was telling me (as a superuser) operation not permitted :) when i reminded myself on a conversion here between you and some other guy about the chroot barrier .. 1111491023 M * erwan_taf hey Bertl 1111491033 M * DaPhreak lo erwan_taf :) 1111491054 M * erwan_taf DaPhreak: \o/ 1111491320 M * Bertl DaPhreak: LOL 1111491332 M * Bertl hey aba! we got an arm syscall! ;) 1111491337 M * DaPhreak yeah, was really fun :) 1111491419 Q * jsambrook Remote host closed the connection 1111491480 M * DaPhreak hmm by the way to all those who are interested: there are new vserver-grsecurity patches at http://studip.uni-greifswald.de/~heim/patches/ 1111491536 J * jsambrook ~jsambrook@aelfric.plus.com 1111491632 Q * jsambrook Remote host closed the connection 1111491641 M * aba Bertl: great. 1111491683 M * aba Bertl: For parisc, I asked the debian kernel maintainer, and he promissed to speak with upstream. 1111491693 Q * kyencer__ Quit: Leaving 1111491740 J * jsambrook ~jsambrook@aelfric.plus.com 1111492125 M * Bertl okay, back later ... 1111492129 N * Bertl Bertl_oO 1111492334 M * sebd is there a way to set "nodev" as default for all existing and future vservers on my host ? under /etc/vservers/.defaults/ ? 1111494444 Q * DaPhreak Ping timeout: 480 seconds 1111494593 J * SVSwift_ ~SVSwift@pD9523C55.dip.t-dialin.net 1111494613 N * SVSwift_ SVSwift 1111494619 M * SVSwift hello 1111494676 M * SVSwift First of all: Thanx for providing irc-logs. That helped me much so far. ;) 1111494698 M * SVSwift But no I've got a problem that I can not fix alone 1111494701 M * SVSwift Starting MySQL database server: mysqldError: /proc must be mounted 1111494701 M * SVSwift To mount /proc at boot you need an /etc/fstab line like: 1111494701 M * SVSwift /proc /proc proc defaults 1111494701 M * SVSwift In the meantime, mount /proc /proc -t proc 1111494724 M * SVSwift This message only comes when starting mysql 1111494769 M * TheSeer distro? 1111494772 M * TheSeer kernel? 1111494775 M * TheSeer vserver-version? 1111494784 M * TheSeer utils-vserver version? 1111494880 M * SVSwift Versions: 1111494880 M * SVSwift Kernel: 2.6.10-vs1.9.4 1111494880 M * SVSwift VS-API: 0x00010025 1111494880 M * SVSwift util-vserver: 0.30.204; Mar 22 2005, 10:21:31 1111494880 M * SVSwift 1111494881 M * SVSwift Features: 1111494881 M * SVSwift CC: gcc, gcc (GCC) 3.3.5 (Debian 1:3.3.5-8) 1111494883 M * SVSwift CXX: g++, g++ (GCC) 3.3.5 (Debian 1:3.3.5-8) 1111494883 M * SVSwift CPPFLAGS: '' 1111494885 M * SVSwift CFLAGS: '-g -O2 -std=c99 -Wall -pedantic -W' 1111494885 M * SVSwift CXXFLAGS: '-g -O2 -ansi -Wall -pedantic -W -fmessage-length=0' 1111494887 M * SVSwift build/host: i686-pc-linux-gnu/i686-pc-linux-gnu 1111494887 M * SVSwift Use dietlibc: no (you have been warned) 1111494889 M * SVSwift Build C++ programs: yes 1111494889 M * SVSwift Build C99 programs: yes 1111494891 M * SVSwift Available APIs: compat,v11,v13,fscompat,net,oldproc,olduts 1111494891 M * SVSwift ext2fs Source: e2fsprogs 1111494891 M * Zoiah SVSwift: vprocunhide 1111494893 M * SVSwift syscall(2) invocation: fast 1111494893 M * SVSwift vserver(2) syscall#: 273/glibc 1111494895 M * SVSwift 1111494895 M * SVSwift Paths: 1111494897 M * SVSwift prefix: 1111494897 M * SVSwift sysconf-Directory: ${prefix}/etc 1111494899 M * SVSwift cfg-Directory: ${prefix}/etc/vservers 1111494899 M * SVSwift initrd-Directory: $(sysconfdir)/init.d 1111494901 M * SVSwift pkgstate-Directory: ${prefix}/var/run/vservers 1111494901 M * SVSwift Kernelheaders: /lib/modules/2.6.10-vs1.9.4/build/include 1111494903 M * SVSwift vserver-Rootdir: /vservers 1111494907 M * SVSwift vprocunhide was executed 1111494918 M * SVSwift automatically at startup 1111494949 M * Zoiah SVSwift: did it run succesfully? 1111494966 M * Zoiah chcontext --ctx 1 ls -la /proc/cpuinfo 1111495012 M * SVSwift ls: /proc/cpuinfo: No such file or directory 1111495025 M * Zoiah Then it did not run (succesfully) 1111495039 M * SVSwift OK 1111495050 M * Zoiah Run it again and try the above command again. 1111495104 M * SVSwift same result 1111495119 M * Zoiah How do you run vprocunhide and what output do you get? 1111495193 M * SVSwift using init.d-script 1111495213 M * SVSwift Output: Fixing /proc entries visibility.... 1111495231 M * Zoiah Hmm. 1111495237 M * Zoiah What does '/etc/init.d/vprocunhide status' say? 1111495240 M * SVSwift Output of: /etc/init.d/vprocunhide status 1111495251 M * SVSwift /proc entries were fixed 1111495281 M * Zoiah That's odd. 1111495292 M * SVSwift yes it is 1111495320 M * Zoiah I don't know then, sorry. 1111495372 M * SVSwift Is this normal behaviuor of a vserver going down?: 1111495373 M * SVSwift Sending all processes the KILL signal...mount: permission denied 1111495374 M * SVSwift killall5: mount returned non-zero exit status 1111495374 M * SVSwift killall5: /proc not mounted, failed to mount. 1111495413 M * Zoiah The vserver shouldn't be trying to mount stuff itself, afaik. 1111495428 M * aba is proc mounted in the vserver? 1111495436 M * rs hi 1111495467 M * SVSwift in /etc/fstab? 1111495536 M * SVSwift /proc /proc proc defaults 0 0 1111495595 M * aba ls /proc inside of the vserver 1111495619 M * Zoiah aba: problem is, vprocunhide doesn't work for him. 1111495629 M * aba Zoiah: ah, ok. 1111495647 M * SVSwift 6049 6066 6112 6115 6117 6119 6128 6141 6149 6160 6171 6325 6333 6347 6403 6405 6407 mounts 1111495647 M * SVSwift 6052 6107 6113 6116 6118 6124 6137 6145 6158 6163 6268 6328 6339 6348 6404 6406 6449 self 1111495836 M * SVSwift could this e a problem of util-vserver-vars? 1111496605 J * DaPhreak ~phreak@lms.rz.uni-greifswald.de 1111496962 M * SVSwift where can vprocunhide be configured? 1111497983 M * SVSwift I think I got it fixed: /etc/vservers/.defaults/apps/vprocunhide/files didn't exist 1111497983 M * SVSwift I filled it with http://savannah.nongnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/util-vserver/util-vserver/distrib/misc/vprocunhide-files?rev=1.2&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup and everything is alright now 1111498214 M * SVSwift mysql still won't start up; complaining about /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock being in use 1111500207 N * DaPhreak DaPhreak|gone 1111502628 M * SVSwift it seems chroot'ing doesn't work. 1111502628 M * SVSwift When a mysqld or an apache is started on the host-server no server in a vserver may establish a pid-file or sock like 1111502628 M * SVSwift /var/run/apache2.pid or /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock 1111502666 M * SVSwift is that normal behaviour? 1111502692 M * SVSwift will running two httpds be possible when using two vservers? 1111502729 M * aba SVSwift: yes 1111502791 M * SVSwift but even when I stop mysqld on the host mysqld in the vserver won't start 1111502986 M * aba SVSwift: there is a special issue with mysql, please see the webpages. 1111503007 M * Doener there is? 1111503017 A * Doener never noticed any... 1111503028 M * SiD3WiNDR something about renicing? 1111503075 M * aba Doener: IIRC, there was something described on the webpages. 1111503082 M * SVSwift which webpages? linux-vserver? 1111503084 M * Doener yeah, that one... but that's not mysql-specific (except that some debian packages reniced mysql by default) 1111503086 M * aba But well, I never cared enough, as I didn't deploy any till now. 1111503089 M * aba SVSwift: IIRC yes. 1111503106 M * SiD3WiNDR Doener: yup, that was problem for me, just commented that out in my.cnf :) 1111503123 M * Doener aba: well, it's mentioned on http://linux-vserver.org/WorkingPrograms ;) 1111503136 M * aba Doener: ah, ok. Sorry for mis-remembering. 1111503165 M * Doener ok, now let's see what's happening on SVSwift's box... 1111503290 M * Doener SVSwift: when you enter the vserver (either via ssh or via vserver xxx enter) are you in the correct filesystem? 1111503630 J * tad ~truex@static-151-204-232-50.bos.east.verizon.net 1111503657 M * SVSwift mesg: /dev/pts/2: Operation not permitted 1111503668 M * Doener that's ok when you do 'vserver xxx enter' 1111503681 M * Doener since your pty is not correctly transferred into the vserver 1111503698 M * Doener entering via ssh is the preferred method 1111503710 M * Doener but shouldn't matter for the stuff we do now 1111503712 M * SVSwift OK, I'm in the correct filesystem 1111503762 M * Doener ok, compare the host's /var/run/apache2.pid with the one of the vserver 1111503807 M * Doener and try starting the apache server 1111503855 M * SVSwift there is no apache2.pid in host's fs 1111503868 M * Doener no apache started there? 1111503931 M * Doener you said you had problems when an apache was running on the host, causing a start of an apache inside the vserver to fail, because of troubles regarding the pid-file, right? 1111503955 M * Doener ... just to make sure that i correctly understood the problem ;) 1111504007 M * SVSwift no, I think the apache problem is a differnet one, I think that's my fault 1111504014 M * SVSwift mysql is the main problem 1111504043 M * Doener maybe you didn't make the host's apache listen on a limited set of ip addresses 1111504051 M * SVSwift I'm running on a single IP at the moment, so when one apache bind's to port 80 no other apache may start 1111504063 M * SVSwift but the mysql-error is different 1111504085 M * Doener yeah, you need private ip's + iptables then, or just have the apache's listen on different ports 1111504104 M * Doener ok, let me look up what you said about mysql 1111504168 M * SVSwift mysql: no pid-file, nowhere as mysqld won't start up throwing the following error: 1111504204 M * SVSwift Bind on unix-socket: Permission denied 1111504229 M * SVSwift Do you already have another mysqld server running on socket: /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock 1111504262 M * SVSwift my answer: No I haven't. But I'll read some google-results on this topic now ;) 1111504263 M * Doener ok, let's try something... su to a regular user inside the vserver and try to write to any world-writable file 1111504356 M * SVSwift succeeded 1111504368 M * SVSwift created /tmp/new as user 1111504375 M * Doener ok 1111504400 M * Doener again inside the vserver: ls -ld /; lsattr -d / 1111504417 M * Doener and btw, which vserver patch version are you using? 1111504427 M * SVSwift 1.9.4 1111504455 M * Doener ok, should be fine, as you got vprocunhide, tools should also be fine 1111504474 M * SVSwift user@: 1111504475 M * SVSwift drwxr-xr-x 20 root root 4096 Mar 22 11:40 / 1111504475 M * SVSwift ----------------- / 1111504495 M * Doener fine as well... 1111504554 M * Doener cat /proc/self/status 1111504636 M * SVSwift do you want me to post that or is a special entry of interest? 1111504730 M * SVSwift OK, forget it 1111504739 M * SVSwift I made the following: 1111504757 M * SVSwift apt-get remove mysql-server 1111504758 M * SVSwift apt-get install mysql-server 1111504771 M * SVSwift and: Oh, magic, it's working now 1111504789 M * SVSwift strange 1111504796 M * SVSwift thanx for your help ;) 1111504814 M * Doener well, i didn't do it ;) but you're welcome anyway 1111504852 M * SVSwift ;) 1111505961 Q * Radiance Remote host closed the connection 1111506054 J * Radiance kryptonite@wrath.shellfx.net 1111506198 Q * Radiance Remote host closed the connection 1111506258 J * Radiance kryptonite@wrath.shellfx.net 1111506834 N * Bertl_oO Bertl 1111506852 M * Bertl hmm, kind of extremely-busy today ;) 1111506895 Q * pulsar Quit: Leaving 1111507326 M * aba Hm, how can I make a mount visible inside a vserver? 1111507484 Q * maharaja Ping timeout: 480 seconds 1111507720 M * Bertl aba: depends on the config 1111507735 M * Loki|muh aba: mount before the vserver start is one possibility 1111507739 M * Bertl a) namespaces or chroot? 1111507753 M * Bertl b) when does the 'mount' happen 1111507768 M * aba Bertl: I had success now with vnamespace. 1111507792 M * Bertl good ;) 1111507799 J * kevinp ~kevinp@ny.webpipe.net 1111507806 M * Bertl welcome kevinp! 1111507815 M * kevinp morning! /evening! 1111507831 M * DaCa evening all 1111507842 M * kevinp I'm back for more advise... 1111507898 M * kevinp I'm looking at running one web based app for multiple people. Each person will have their own instance of the app, but I would like to keep administration to a minimum. 1111507934 M * kevinp So I'm wondering is it possible using vserver to keep the install of the app shared among them all, but have seperate configs for each? 1111507952 M * kevinp So that when I want to upgrade the app, I only need to upgrade the one install? 1111507973 M * kevinp Or is there a different virtualiztion concept that would work better for this? 1111507989 J * kalou ~kalou@AToulon-201-1-3-12.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr 1111507994 M * kalou Hi 1111508009 M * Bertl evening kalou! 1111508024 M * Bertl kevinp: you did read my email regarding name-based vservers? 1111508038 M * kevinp I glanced through it, yeah 1111508063 M * kevinp You think that would be best? I have plenty of IP addresses though so that shouldn't be an issue 1111508091 M * Bertl no, that's just an idea _what_ you can do ... 1111508164 M * DaCa kevinp: is it one particular app you want to run? 1111508192 A * DaCa makes a note to self to subscribe to the ML 1111508292 M * kevinp Yes, it's one web based app that people can use to store their files and other info with 1111508329 M * kevinp But I need to keep them seperate so that people can't read each others stuff, but at the backend keep it one (if possible) 1111508348 M * kevinp And without reprogamming the app 1111508422 M * kevinp I guess I just don't understand very well how the programs can be shared between vservers 1111508530 M * DaCa kevinp: I mean, did you already choose your application? the reason why I ask is that it might be easier to run a Zope based webapp, as Zope has already everything on board to make the separation (and the sharing :)) 1111508554 M * DaCa especially the only once upgrading for all instances is a bit more difficult with vserver 1111508611 M * kevinp hmm. I think my boss is already set on which app he wants to use.... 1111508667 M * kevinp would any other concept work better for the upgrading part? vps, uml? 1111508673 M * DaCa then you probably want vserver 1111508863 M * DaCa vs uml I don't think so and overhead would be much higher, I cant talk about vps (dont know it) 1111508941 M * Bertl hmm, vps = linux-vserver ;) 1111508960 M * DaCa oh :) 1111509022 M * DaCa Bertl: well I suppose you agree with me that vserver would be better (or at least more lightweight) than uml :) 1111509047 M * Bertl yeah, definitely, UML will add a running kernel for each instance 1111509555 M * SVSwift bye 1111509565 Q * SVSwift Quit: Bis dann... 1111510428 M * rs hey bertl 1111510476 M * kevinp sorry, ran out for a bit 1111510532 M * kevinp thanks for the help, so sounds like vserver is definitely the way to go. 1111510579 M * kevinp So what feature/topic should I research to understand the best way to share the one app? unification? 1111510615 M * DaCa kevinp: yes 1111510794 M * Bertl hey rs! 1111510973 J * keyser_soze ~keyser@host221.201-252-29.telecom.net.ar 1111511237 M * Bertl evening keyser_soze! 1111511626 J * prae ~prae@sherpadown.net 1111511638 M * Bertl welcome prae! 1111511655 M * prae hi 1111511792 M * prae beback :p 1111511794 Q * prae Quit: 1111512396 N * BobR_oO BobR 1111512713 Q * th Remote host closed the connection 1111513145 N * BobR BobR_oO 1111513640 J * Pazzo ~thomas@host130-250.pool8172.interbusiness.it 1111513687 M * Bertl evening Pazzo! 1111514607 Q * tad Remote host closed the connection 1111514850 J * tad ~truex@static-151-204-232-50.bos.east.verizon.net 1111514907 N * Doener Doener|gone 1111514916 M * Doener|gone back later... (i guess ;) 1111514965 M * Bertl ;) 1111516256 M * Bertl okay, off for now .. back later ... 1111516286 N * Bertl Bertl_oO 1111516505 M * Zoiah -f Force unmount (in case of an unreachable NFS system). (Requires kernel 2.1.116 or later.) 1111516509 M * Zoiah Wrong channel, sorry. 1111516532 J * DukeGangsta|aw ~uefgangst@p548697DF.dip.t-dialin.net 1111517184 Q * DukeGangsta|aw Read error: Connection reset by peer 1111517378 Q * DaPhreak|gone jupiter.oftc.net arion.oftc.net 1111517378 Q * Vudumen jupiter.oftc.net arion.oftc.net 1111517378 Q * eyck jupiter.oftc.net arion.oftc.net 1111517378 Q * Loki|muh jupiter.oftc.net arion.oftc.net 1111517387 J * Loki|muh loki@satanix.de 1111517425 J * Vudumen vudumen@perverz.hu 1111517428 J * DaPhreak|gone ~phreak@lms.rz.uni-greifswald.de 1111517659 J * eyck eyck@81.219.64.71 1111517659 Q * virtuoso Read error: Connection reset by peer 1111517972 J * DukeGangsta|aw ~uefgangst@p548697DF.dip.t-dialin.net 1111517999 J * virtuoso ~s0t0na@tranq.dorms.spbu.ru 1111518946 Q * keyser_soze Quit: Abandonando 1111521161 J * Nik ~Nik@cable-153-130.online.bg 1111521163 M * Nik hi all 1111521707 J * erwan_ho ~erwan@lns-vlq-39f-81-56-133-136.adsl.proxad.net 1111522064 Q * brc Ping timeout: 480 seconds 1111522156 Q * tad Quit: using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.10 1111522535 J * tad ~truex@static-151-204-232-50.bos.east.verizon.net 1111523288 Q * Nik Quit: Hybernating my brain..... 1111525957 Q * tad Read error: Connection reset by peer 1111526039 J * tad ~truex@static-151-204-232-50.bos.east.verizon.net 1111527887 Q * Pazzo Quit: Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/ 1111528212 T * * http://linux-vserver.org/ | latest stable 1.2.10, devel 1.9.5-rc3, ng9.4 -- He who asks a question is a fool for a minute; he who doesn't ask is a fool for a lifetime -- share the gained knowledge on the wiki, and we'll forget about the minute ;) 1111528212 T * Bertl - 1111529128 Q * tad Remote host closed the connection 1111531329 J * maharaja maharaja@ipax.at 1111532869 Q * erwan_ho Remote host closed the connection 1111533411 N * Bertl_oO Bertl 1111534332 N * Doener|gone Doener 1111534395 M * Bertl evening Doener! 1111534401 M * Doener evening Bertl 1111535871 M * Bertl okay, I'm off to bed now ... almost fell asleep at the keyboard ;) 1111535902 M * Bertl will be back in a few hours I guess, have a nice one everyone! 1111535922 N * Bertl Bertl_zZ